I found the loudest songs on Spotify and analyzed them to figure out how much loudness in mastering is too much.
► The Loudness War In Mastering Is Still On
► How To Properly Determine How Loud Songs On Spotify Are Today
► How To Properly Discern Loudness On Spotify
► How Musicians Determine How Loud A Master Should BE
► It’s Very Hard To Make A Song Very Loud And Listenable
► Songs Above 4 LUFS Rarely Are Popular
Chapters:
0:00 The Loudness War In Mastering Is At It’s Peak
0:43 The Most Popular Artists Are Still Making Really Loud Songs
2:01 Why I Care About Loud Songs
2:30 How To Measure How Loud A Song Is On Spotify
3:08 What Loudness Really Means In Mastering
4:55 How Artists Determine A Master Is Loud Enough
5:13 Why Loud Songs Are Not Listenable
6:18 Why We Are Listenings To Songs With a +50 Popularity Score
7:00 Listening To The Loudest Songs On Spotify
12:09 What I Learned From The Loudest Songs On Spotify
Links:
► MusicStax – https://musicstax.com/
► Follow Along On This Spotify Playlist – The Loudest Songs On Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6mDp0RuvpCjWmg9tQldIL9?si=3dfa35833c9a4c7b
► How To Hack Spotify’s Popularity Score https://youtu.be/YoCtW_N_1jg
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Despite normalization efforts by streaming services like Spotify, the loudness war in music production continues. Major artists on Spotify are mastering their tracks at levels higher than -14LUFS, contrary to popular belief. While musicians’ choices may not always be wise, in this case, they rely on expert advice. Achieving extreme loudness in music can lead to distortion and decreased listenability. Analysis of popular songs on Spotify demonstrates the challenge of balancing loudness and emotional impact. Extreme loudness sacrifices the quality and enjoyment of music. Emphasizing emotional impact over arbitrary loudness levels is crucial in evaluating music.
#mastering #loudnesswars #musicproduction
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You’re a legend Jesse
This is very interesting but also confusing for me. When I was mastering my latest song I kept feeling like it was too loud so I ended up turning it lower several times before deciding it was good. Idk what the db levels are or anything like that, I just use my ears to compare. Now that the song is out though it still seems way too loud. It doesn’t sound bad or distorted but it’s obviously a lot louder than other things on Spotify. I just tested it and it’s actually significantly louder than the songs on this list. Ironically enough, today I got a comment on it saying it sounds too quiet 🤷♂️. Idk what to make of it. Still think I’ll try to make my next song a good bit quieter. It’s really strange though because my song is like a lot louder than anything on this list. You would think it would be unlistenable but it’s really not bad to my ears, just kinda aggressively loud.
I still got a song up to 123dB on AirPod pros
Earned a subscriber with this one. One of the few I've seen talk about energy.
Bla bla bla 'loud songs are bad except if they're made by popular artist'
Jesse man, I wish you'd do more mastering content videos. People are idiots.
Trenches – Osamason would make the list
can i ask a question? i know i'm clearly a sweaty disgusting incel for saying this, but i quite like the sound of more dynamic masters. to my ears, the biggest difference i'd ever found in terms of sound quality was listening to older cd pressings of certain albums instead of remasters from the 2000s or so, as to me the former sound much more spacious and open whereas the latter feel suffocating to listen to. because of this i'm still not sure what there is to gain from excessively hard limiting masters unless you want the mix to sound suffocating/overbearing? maybe it's just my listening preferences or the type of music i like – i'm really interested in sound design and like a lot of atmospheric music, and some masters i feel compromise the mix's atmosphere in favour of getting those LUFS numbers up, and make the music fatiguing to listen to for too long. And i guess of course it depends on the type of music, a club dance track for instance probably needs to be quite loud!
Who cares dude? The insecure artists and major labels choose to master loud but in reality there is no need to master louder than -14 lufs integrated. Once they slowly realise how stupid it is, the volume will drop.
ME’s are just a hired guns doing the job they are requested to. Most will definitely not make a creative choice to master at -3 lufs, they are requested to do that.
In reallity -14 will sound similarly loud as -9 and we are no longer forced to squeeze the life out od mixes anymore which is GREAT!
Yeah, -3 lufs will sound louder even when normalized, but it will also sound like a distorted pile of garbage.
What disposable pop stars and major labels are doing, instead of using logic and reason is not my business. After all they are selling image, not music…
4:03 earnt a sub and a like
Interesting video. I imagine the numbers you are looking at are for the hottest momentary peak loudness in the entire track?
M
Chances of any of the tracks being -1 LUFS integrated is pretty low.
I imagine that any track showing -1 here is probably more like -4 or -5 when you look at the integrated LUFS reading.
I hope it’s not too pedantic, but I think this is an important distinction to make.
Your main point, that most mainstream tracks are mastered way hotter than Spotify recommends is certainly correct! And some of them sound quite good, for sure.
But if we are going to start throwing numbers around, I think it’s important that we be really clear on what measurements we are using. Otherwise, it can get a little confusing for people.
If one person is talking about integrated LUFS and another is talking about momentary LUFS, those are such wildly different things that it could cause some major puzzlement.
In my experience, most popular tracks are somewhere between -12 and -5 integrated, depending on genre.
The more electronic the genre, the more likely it is to be on the louder end of things.
But if we are looking at the peak loudness in momentary LUFS, those same -12 to -5 LUFS tracks could show up as, I don’t know, -6 to -1 LUFS?
But this is only because they are measuring two very different things!
Wish you would have clarified that in the video to make it even more clear. But the general idea is absolutely right, even if I would quibble about what specific numbers to recommend based on what you found.
The people in the comments who are talking about mastering their tracks at -10 or -7 or whatever are just looking at a totally different scale than you are looking at here. Hence the confusion.
Hope that is somewhat helpful! I’ve enjoyed your content on release strategies, and I didn’t expect you to do something on this topic!
-Justin
damn bro didnt expect to get a great mastering lesson in this vid too lmao what cant you do??
Hahahahah you're sick bro loved this video and it's actually is very informative and more accurate than the bullshit people are talking about loudness. Thanks!
Jesse, I don't think the Spotify API "loudness" values (used by Music Stax) are LUFS, even though Spotify ARE now using LUFS for normalisation. The "loudness" values seem to always be a few db higher than actual integrated LUFS. I suspect they are based on Spotify's older Replay Gain calculations. This is why the values of these ultra loud songs are positive – I think you are incorrectly assuming they are negative values. If you look at just a moderately loud song it will have a negative sign in front of the number e.g. Miley Cyrus "Flowers" comes in at -4.33db.
i almost spat my coffee when you said scaring the hos
that fiona apple crass shirt is insane
You lost a ton of credit when you said you like 100 gecs.
Don't worry about the LUfS that much. Skrillex LUFs are -3 LUfS, and many artists are between -3LUfs and 0 (electronic/heavy bass music ). If it is not implied to be played in a club, or festival It's not necessary to be that loud, let the listener turn up the volume. It's okay to have two different masters for different purposes and hire a mastering engineer ( not those cheap sites )
I can't believe kids listen to this utter garbage or their pocket computers. I can only imagine this non-music coming up in a movie during a mean scene or in a Need for Speed game. There would still be dynamics in sound effects then.
I downloaded some crap electrop and trap in Dolby Atmos with a reference level of -18 db. To my surprise, the downmix with a DR10 was actually listenable.
Great examples and interesting point of view. I always enjoy your content. Whether wrong or right…. I suppose it's up to the listeners. I listened to clips of the songs from your playlist and they all are completely un-listenable. I just recently decided to return to my roots in recording and mixing and I personally struggle on an emotional and intellectual level, as I am pushed to make mixes "Loud" for the sake of competition and at the costly expense of of artistry. Call me a nerd if you want. I don't really believe in "rules" when it comes to creating music. I say do whatever the hell you want as an artist, producers or engineer, as long as it ultimately sounds good and serves the song. The greatest of modern mix engineers continue to work very hard to balance levels, tone, and texture to create an overall sonic cohesion that serves the song, and yet, based on the current state you described, maybe they might as well not have bothered. I know a lot of folks are pushing their mixes to -8 LUFS and beyond, but I personally think they do themselves, their clients and their audiences an incredible disservice. I say the industry should work to set some "guidelines" at least and then let us all work within them or change them, if they don't work. Spotify and other streaming services in a way may have been doing us all a favor, and maybe the standard of "loud" needs to be thoroughly addressed and changed to say -11 or even -8, if that's really necessary, but for heavens sake enforce them, when their set. Otherwise, we will all continue to shoot in the dark, be loud just to be loud, and ploy ahead without conscience or reason.
A question i would love your answer on –
what makes an artist come up first on spotify ? for example – what do you do if you have the same name as another aritst? 🙏💕
Hey Jesse, I know you made a video improving artist’s Instagram pages, but do you have a list on mind of some of the best Instagram pages to take inspiration from? Who are the people doing it right?
I need more of you in my life
Thank you so much for this quality content!
You remind me of kenny beats lol
Kordhell has one of the loudest mix… -3db
Just master between -6 and -9 LUFS and yall will be alright folks. Can't go wrong, if Serban Ghenea is cranking out pop mixes that sound clean as fuck at -5 LUFs, you can get away with something clean at -6 or -7 and still be plenty competitive
This totally echoes the conversations I've been having all week man!
this is an interesting time to see this video bc I'm currently working on a project which is much louder than usual for me. We'll see how that translates to streaming services
Been waiting for this. I tried to master at recommended levels -14 LUFS and just couldn't do it. Though I have some remorse for the loss of dynamics & instrument clarity etc from the original mixes when applying the limiting, in the end it just seems bland or a bit lame (when compared to other professionally mastered tracks on Spotify) if it doesn't have that bite that comes for me when boosted to -7 to – 8 LUFS which is still a bit conservative now it seems lol.
So if we “suppose” we can master a song without it being unpleasant to any value of LUFS, should we try going the loudest we possibly can?
Great video Jesse, thanks for sharing that research. I make indie rock and my masters tend to sit around -10 LUFS, any louder and i start hearing distracting distortion. The problem is on a playlist when my songs come on they are just (to my ears) a couple db quieter which can really deflate the energy. Very frustrating.
That website you’re reading from does not look like it’s measuring LUFS
Sorry for being a Sound engineer "incel" but are you sure that "loudness score" is actually measuring LUFS? Looks more like maximum peak to me. I downloaded the JPEG Mafia song and looked at it in Reaper, LUFS came in at around -1.3 (which is still of course silly levels). If you like that overblown sound then go for it I guess, to me it gets old really quick.
Nice
Thank you for putting together this from your side! There is tons of misinformation and scam engineers who charges extra just for doing "Spotify Master, Instagram Master, Apple Master"… c'mon!!! Even with the cleanest master ever, they will re-convert to a lossy format, so don't waste time, get the finished product ready for be played live, upload to DSP's without concerns and move on… I did a master myself on a song that got 2.8 million plays and supported by big dance playlist… and I uploaded the -6LUFS file, the same I use on my live shows
Lol Jesse, your throwaway comments crack me up! Thank you for embodying the grouchy way I feel towards herding braindead musicians so perfectly. You help me be a more patient herder!
Great content Jesse!
Dan Worrall winning by having his song titled "I Won The Loudness War WARNING THIS MIGHT DESTROY YOUR SPEAKERS" at a casual +2.3 integrated LUFS.
Alan at west west side mastered the first SLeuX album released on our label.. still sounds great and yes Alan is awesome 🤘🏼
Bro is that FREEDOM ROCK? TURN IT UP!
As a kid I remember Oasis records being way louder that all the other records of the era. Thanks for explaining this era’s loudness war.
I usually top out my tracks somewhere between -8 and -12. I’m still trying to figure out how to pump those numbers up and get nice dynamics. But yeah screw adhering to -14.
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. The loudness wars, luffs, and all that junk is one of those things I have a hard time wrapping my head around and you gave some great examples, I think that’s why I had that misconception about loudness and what Spotify does to your mix. That FALILV song you posted was a great example, I actually love that song. I always wondered why it sounded like that and now I know why.
Btw, the song @11:39 means “Mexican H*e” 😅 but the way you pronounced it made it sound like “Mexican spike/point” (almost the same word, just with an “n” between the “u” and the “t”) so I don’t think the algorithm will pick it up and hit you with the banhammer, or at least I hope not lol
As always, great content and thank you for making my life easier!
Just realized im a dumb af… thanks!!!
This is literally what my engineer and I have been struggling with. Thanks so much for the info
I’ve been wondering about this
why is this channel adressing issues like you are 40 but it talks like you are 12 ?
ラスベガス！ I swear to God, Let Me Hear by Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is one of THOSE songs for me. I'll never get tired of it, and will remain one of my greatest references. I find it super interesting you find it unhearable, I couldn't fathom not listening to it. To which their own ey.